Talk:Church arson

noun for church-arsonist

kyriarsonist with the accent on a, from the etymon kýrios (the accent on y or better ý) = lord

• abbreviated form: kyrsonist — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.212.150 (talk) 17:41, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Canada: Stray reference, needs its own sentence

this did not belong at the end of a sentence about fires in another province

• Snowdon, Wallis (June 30, 2021). "'Terrible and tragic': Century-old Catholic church in Morinville, Alta., destroyed by fire". CBC.ca. Retrieved July 4, 2021. Elinruby (talk) 04:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Unsourced from UK section, also unsourced in our article about the church

For both of these there is a section in the article about the church itself that talks about rebuilding, so I don't really doubt that the fires happened. However the linked reference for the fire in Birmingham goes to a list of current news stories about Birmingham, and the reference for the one gives a strange permissions error. Possibly this can be remedied by someone who has enough time and interest

• "St Barnabas' Church in Erdington, Birmingham was badly damaged by fire in 2007, arson is suspected." Elinruby (talk) 00:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

In 1998 the church of St Bartholomew Allen's Cross in Northfield, a district of Birmingham, was attacked by arsonists. The church was deemed beyond repair and demolished in 2008. Elinruby (talk) 18:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

United States section is a mess. Will see what I can do

Moved here from article as probably true but in need of work: Within the Hate Crime Statistics Act, Blacks are the targets of many hate crimes.

Awkward. Probably means that using that definition, that statement is true. Check, rewrite, reference.

even if rewritten this would be about a primary source. Wapo source better for this Elinruby (talk) 13:56, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

African-American historian C. Eric Lincoln wrote in Coming Through the Fire: Surviving Race and Place in America that the first recorded church arson of a black church happened in 1822 in South Carolina.

Probably true. Check this attribution and convert to reference.

[1] <- Google Books link. Wikilinked article fairly substantive and may be useful. He seems quite respected. No checking done yet of claims Elinruby (talk) 03:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

See this much better list Elinruby (talk) 09:24, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

added link to article but leaving here for future reading Elinruby (talk) 09:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

the 1822 was the same church that Roof shot upref>McInnis, Maurie (June 19, 2015). "The First Attack on Charleston's AME Church." Slate. Retrieved June 30, 2015.</ref> Elinruby (talk) 13:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC) :

this is well-known and much mentioned in Dylan Roof coverage so the in-text attribution is unneeded. That said the book still looks like a great source although access is snippet view Elinruby (talk) 13:56, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Arson by white mobs also occurred in Cincinnati in 1829 and through the 1830s in Philadelphia.

• See also 1834 Philadelphia race riot no mention of arson but churches "destroyed" Ursuline convent.riots near Boston burned a convent down Elinruby (talk) 13:08, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

In the 1950s and 1960s, as civil rights activism and the desegregation of public places such as schools and restaurants were starting to increase, so was the burning and bombing of black churches.

Also probably true, and possibly from the source above. Verify this and clarify or reference as needed.

"In Meridian, Miss., where two churches were bombed and two more burned in the course of a single year." (Wapo why)

Other work needed to other subsections of United States Elinruby (talk) 02:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Undue for this article. Moving here in case someone wants to do "church burnings in the United States in the 1990s"

(This is about the US task force)

In the 1990s "a spate of more than 600 incidents across the South finally held the nation’s attention."

According to a first-year report to the president in June 1997, they opened investigation to 429 cases of arson, bombings, or attempted bombings of churches since January 1, 1995. A second report in October 1998 covered 241 more cases between January 1, 1995, and September 8, 1998, for a total of 670 investigations. A third report in January 2000 reviewed another 157 cases for a total of 827.Church arsons decreased 82 percent from 1,320 in 1980 to 240 in 2002 according to the National Fire Protection Association.

• list of Louisiana church burnings outside pattern, named and convicted arsonist was black metal fan. No criminal record. Not sure if this is one even (conviction) or three (fires). No prior record. Elinruby (talk) 08:18, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• [[°)

References

Serious question: Why do we have this article? What is it supposed to be?

Does it know? I don't. Now that I have very carefully and incrementally weed-whacked a whole bunch of ... Something ... The repeated use of "arson attack", especially with Donald Trump, cross burning and residential schools shoehorned into the See also section, makes me think that Nigel Farage and Steve Bannon met and had a love child who was raised by the internet research agency?

@Scope creep, Mathglot, TarnishedPath, Horse Eye's Back, and TFD: I apologize for pinging you all here and implore you not to make any edits to the article as this is the road to AE timesinks and all of you are needed elsewhere. But what is a more appropriate way to describe this on Wikipedia? Note that nobody seems to care about this article. It's just been a quiet coatrack for misinformation -- and badly referenced actual information about a topic I can't quite discern -- for years and years and years. Help. Please throw me a clue, elsewhere if you prefer. Asking y'all in particular because you know policy and will be willing to tell me that I have just been working too hard on polishing this turd if that is the case, and I will be able to say hooray and skip off to more interesting timesinks. Multiple merge requests?

Note important caveats above, the very verbose recent edit descriptions, as well as the recently added JSTOR quote+source. As far as I can tell, it is all like that. It is probably pertinent to mention that I am pretty sure I do not know and have never even heard of any previous author of this article. Elinruby (talk) 02:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Responding to ping. So what strikes me immediately is that this is a list, so if it is to stay around I would expect the title to reflect that. Now if we accept that this is a list then I imagine that the number of church arsons throughout history would be unmanagable if the list was to be expanded to contain all members of the set. My next point is, is there discussion of church arsons as a category of events (such that it woudl fit all church arsons through history) in reliable sources? If not then the article would fail WP:NLIST. Perhaps there is some need to confine the list to some subset of all church arsons? Those are just some thoughts. TarnishedPath^talk 02:45, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Another thing of note is that there are entires in this list which don't have sourcing stating that the church fire was arson. So we have WP:OR going on here. TarnishedPath^talk 02:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

oh yes. I invite you to peruse the edit summaries. Elinruby (talk) 03:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I only looked at the first few entries, but just the first highlighted the issue. The reference used does not refer to the fire as arson once, the word is not used in the entire article. At best it states that the fire was suspicious which is not the same as it being arson. All such entries should either have referencing added from reliable sources which states that the fires were arson or they should be removed.

Ps, I gave up on looking at edit summaries because it's just a screen full of black that I don't need to put into my brain while I'm at work. TarnishedPath^talk 03:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah you are at work, sorry. No rush on this. Here is a good example for later though:[2]. Also see the Niger section. Elinruby (talk) 03:44, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

All good. I occasoinally look in on WP while I'm at work just to break my tasks up. TarnishedPath^talk 04:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I feel like an article on Church arson or in general the burning of religious sites is due... But that isn't what it currently is. Its currently a list which is utterly confused... It open "Church arson is burning or attempting to burn religious property" but apparently means "Church arson is burning or attempting to burn Christian religious property" The current article is also global while the original article was focused on a much smaller topic within the United States[3]. Maybe we satify that original topic with a Church arson in the United States? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back and TarnishedPath: thank you for the very thoughtful answers which I think will allow me to move this forward a bit more. The mobile interface ate quite a lot reply before I could post it, so I rebooted and switched to desktop mode to say thank you for the reality check and it is good to know that I am not simply wound too tight atm. I will continue the highly documented incremental approach.

• I agree that an article about the US is completely DUE though other people are probably better equipped to write it as well as more interested. Now that the section has been put in some semblance of order, I can probably make a start in the talk page section above. Problems may remain, such as not all arsons being in the south or at African-American churches, as previously noted. There may also be recentism involving the arsons after the Dylan Roof shooting.
• I can probably do the due diligence about checking for updates about causes, charges and/or convictions. Will document.
• Category tree should be investigated but those are touchy folk. Probably will leave changes for later but see how it is currently organized.
• "Church arsons are arsons at churches" might be better than current lede, I agree. (I know I know, that is a low bar). But one two three not it, for addressing fires at synagogues. Will attempt to scope this; hadn't thought of WP:NLIST, thanks.
• To whom it may concern, I wouldn't watchlist just now if you find updates annoying, since a burst of granular verbosity is forming. Elinruby (talk) 23:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

India section

While the references here are as I recall verified as supporting the text, the text here seems to be a copy-paste of random text from 2008 Kandhamal violence which to the untutored eye appears to be a hot Hindutva mess that deals with the intersection of caste and politics and isn't caste a CT? The last 50 edits go back 18 months and are exclusively IPs claiming to address bias, and bots and and named editors making automated changes to references, and categories. Claims to be a B class article. Talk page says article is biased towards Christians. I sense a larger picture but have no clue about RS here. Apparently Dalit Panas converted to Christianity and scheduled Kondha (sp?) tribe does not like that. Constitutional provisions about reservations are discussed. Elinruby (talk) 04:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Sangh Parivar appears to be more thoughtfully written and contains references that look academic. Elinruby (talk) 05:31, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way there seems to be no question that churches did burn. women were also raped populations were displaced, homes were destroyed and people were killed by the thousands. Elinruby (talk) 06:32, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Contentious topic banners needed if article is a global list

Not an actual proposal; contemplating scope. Also tentative, as I am currently doing this from memory. The names scope of topic designations would need to be checked to seriously do this, which again, I am not proposing.

• Caste in India - seems obvious
• American politics - Dylan Roof, mass murders, for a start
• BLP - Norway at least, maybe Sweden. Possibly Australia for quote from very notable actress. Her lengthy article does not mention church arsons. Does discuss her religious views. Nothing about pedophile priests. Elinruby (talk) 06:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• Medical - Sweden, Canada, Australia for Rockhampton fire not yet in article Elinruby (talk) 08:26, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• Gaza - Parent category contains a church in Gaza

Elinruby (talk) 05:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Australia

• both priests mentioned are long dead so not BLP. Suicides are mentioned but no names. Gratuitous name drop of probably-living actress. I am finding some sources I do not recognize that use arson or arsonist, but once past the lede or headline this is not a quote from anyone official. Apparently sloppily use as synonym of "suspicious fire". Still looking. Elinruby (talk) 05:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• australia.net.au: sketch of Dandenong suspect. Details do sound very suspicious. No official declaration of arson in this source [4] Elinruby (talk) 05:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• The Age: discusses these three fires as group. Police not calling it. [5]
• Daily Mail is all over this
• "Church arson Australia" gives an arrest in relation to a different fire in Auburn. [6] Murdoch? Elinruby (talk) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• Sydney Morning Herald - Named white supremacist arrested for fire at Pentecostal church in Taree [7] Elinruby (talk) 06:18, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
• abc.net.au: Named suspect arrested for arson at Rockhampton church. Mentally ill. Not in our article Elinruby (talk) 08:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Pakistan: Source misrepresentation feeding Islamophobia

have not had time to review this section properly, and as in India I sorely lack background. For now just noting that in the review of the referencing, this is where I found the most bald-faced source misrepresentation. A lot of the rest of the many many MANY problems in this article could be attributed to recentism or ineptitude or haste. However it is not the case that the police in the linked incident stood by and watched as churches burned and this is an incendiary claim given the current climate of Islamophobia. According to the BBC source this was cited to, 100 people were arrested and hundreds more were charged. This isaterial in evaluating the level of suspicion that should be applied to the article's other claims. Elinruby (talk) 13:04, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Catholic narrative of persecution spliced onto US civil rights topic

i have not posted catholic sources in the source review work I have done so far, but Google is turning up a constant drumbeat of "churches on high alert after attacks on churches" type headlines and this may be where some of the SYNTH is coming from. Noticed this particularly in Australia, as the three fires that keep coming up and that we cite in the article as examples do not seem to have ever have been officially declared arson, although the details such as the mention of accelerants do point in this direction. The two unambiguous cases I found in Australia -- ie, where someone was charged --involve mental illness and white supremacy.

In case I do not get back to this soon, posting this here now, as RL is calling.

An important point in the WP source I found for US civil rights: the church as community and agent for change. Maybe to the point where the religious part is simply affirmation of human dignity. This adjoins the social justice mission of the Catholic Church in Latin America, and yes, the deep individuals betrayals of that in the sexual abuse that went on. Betrayal too in Canada, although social justice there was wrapped in a "civilizing" mission. This may be OR -- I certainly would not say this in the article right now -- but the events in India seem to have had something to do with social change and oppression. In the Niger section we have a peer-reviewed journal quote that I added that says exactly this.

So there is a global topic that could be written about here but I am not sure that Wikipedia is competent to write it, or that this is best addressed with a list of incidents. When I can get to it I will compile some Catholic sources. These will be pertinent to what happened in Canada, where these is also some source misrepresentation, more subtle and possibly inadvertent. The problem there however in that part of the problem there is a large news source that has strong opinions about all this. Elinruby (talk) 15:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)